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Monday, January 26, 2009

Breaking News! - Fiances are non-mahrams!

Alhamdulillah, I see a lot of younger sisters now pushing to get married earlier for fear of falling into sin. However, for some reason people take the label of 'fiance' and think it actually means something. It really doesn't. All it means is that this person will, inshaAllah, marry you and you've made promises/plans to do so. Other than that, they are still your non mahram up until the nikaah takes place. You treat him just as any other random Muhammad walking into the masjid. You can't chill with him, talk on the phone with him, even go out in groups with this person... no touching..nothing. Prior to the engagement surely you've spoken to this brother with your mahram present, getting to know him and considering him for marriage. Once you're engaged, khalas, you've considered and accepted him and there shouldn't be much need to get to know him more through speaking to him, because if you need to get to know him more, maybe you rushed into the engagement. From then on the only thing you may need to discuss are arrangements for the wedding.

Unfortauntely I see many sisters, most who have in the past shown clear understanding of fiances not being mahrams, driving alone in cars with their fiance, out smoking hooka with their finace, or hanging out at restaurants with them, sitting and posing side by side too. Just because other males/females are there with you, doesnt make it okay to go out and hang with him, especially if you're being social and giggling and laughing and flirting. What makes me even more confused is some of these sisters say, "It's okay, my cousin was there." YOUR COUSIN'S YOUR NON MAHRAM TOO - even if you don't plan on marrying him!

I understand there's a huge rush of emotions knowing that this is the man you will inshaAllah marry and spend the rest of your life with... but for now he is just a promise and nothing more. Please don't wear your heart on your sleeve and get so involved beforehand, because a lot of time this sets up false and high expectations which after marriage you realize those expectations will not be met. Please don't fall into the trap a lot of brothers and sisters get into with communicating with one another. This also makes it very difficult on people trying to get married but their parents disapprove. They feel so connected with this person and it causes much fitnah in the family because of the 'relationship' you had beforehand with this brother.

Indeed it's difficult to act like this person is no one special. Of course he is! But this is also why its best to not wait months or years for the nikaah to take place after an engagement because it makes things difficult between the intended partners.

Your finace is your non mahram, engagements are more easily broken off than marriages are. The nikaah puts the seal on your relationship and after that you can talk as much as you want without fear or worry of sinning. And then soon enough you'll start getting tired of hearing this person speak =p haha

Oh, and don't even get me started on engagement parties/ceremonies where they're sitting side by side decked out in front of dozens of people touching one another and putting rings on each other... blah..

May Allah make it easy on all of us, ameen!

31 comments:

malizea said...

Good post mashallah I think it's an important thing to highlight because a lot of people because of ignorance confuse religion with culture, and I know that in some culture going out with your fiance and so on is normal soubhanallah, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!! may Allah rewards you.

Sarah said...

i was thinking maybe they dont know, but then you said they did know from before! when ppl are in the situation themself they just do what will please them and that is what matters. talking before marriage is the source of lot of problem like you said.

Aliyah said...

This really annoys me!!! I mean marriage is one of the biggest steps in life, you'd think people would research it and learn right from wrong so they can do it the correct way, but nooo, people get excited to be getting married they let it get to their heads!!!

Laura said...

as salamu aleikum,
i think it is in deed very important to TALK before getting married!!!! i mean thats the only way to find out if you will match or not! you've said that they have talked already before getting enfianced.. but as far as i am concerned that shouldnt be the fact and also as far as i am concerned engagement is the fase in which you can get to know eachother (in a halal way OF COURSE) and to have the basis to be able to decide whether to marry or not.
butthat just seems to be my humble opinion.
ma salamah,
laura

Lazeena Umm Yusuf said...

Of course getting to know someone before marriage is important. Who would want to marry someone without speaking to them and getting to know them?

But wheres the sense in getting engaged to someone to get to know about them? Engagement is the intent to marry someone, not to learn about them. Otherwise brothers and sisters would go through many engagements before getting married. You're supposed to have sit downs with them, as many as you need, to come to your decision if you would marry them or not. Once a proposal is accepted then you are engaged and set to be married.

A lot of people think an engagement is a 'learn about one another' period, or they treat it even as if the nikaah has taken place. This makes no sense because each time someone shows interest in another it would be called an engagement..

Almallena said...

I agree with Laura and Lazeena, you need to talk to them more than once or more than you would to a brother at a MSA meeting. So its perfectly halal to talk to them and interact with them in the halal manner of course, which would include family there with you guys. You can't just treat them like any other random brother because if you did you wouldnt get much info, lets get real. So you can spend time with them which would include mama and baba there. so yeah, ahh I use to have this messed up point of view too about fiances until I realized that it doesnt mean anything. Culture really does play a factor in how one thinks if religion is not taught early in life about how to go the right way about things.

Mona said...

That's a big trend here. People always going out together but they see it as ok cause they're engaged. I roll my eyes at this point in the comment. I too agree people have to get to know each other before nikkah but in a halal way.

um almujahid said...

as salamu alaykum

good post mash'Allah!Yes having a "fiancè" is written nowhere in Islam.

Ms.Unique said...

Masha Allah really nice and interesting post .... Yup many ppl don't realize this very thing that the fiance is a NON-MAHRAM .... Subhan Allah .... that's hw it's in India now this trend of getting engaged and getting to know the person .... May Allah guide us all Ameen ...

Aisha UK said...

Salaam. Sorry, Sis. I must comment on it before I read the post to the end... It's that important...

Well, ok, I know and accept that fiance is not a mahram, as well as cousin and other men. But - !!! - where is that written, that you can't talk on the phone to your fiance and go out when you have third person with you?! I need to correct you, Dear.

Well, in the Hadith the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam said to a man of Sahaba who was going to marry a woman: Look at her, because that will help strenghten the relationship between you two... Look at her, because there is something in Ansar's eyes...!

Yes, sister, it is not only allowed for the fiances to meet each other and specially talk - not only on the phone, but also face to face - and they are just required to bring someone else, preferably girl's mahram, to assist them while they are talking. This is shariah's requirement. Just as you need to be in presence of other people, preferably your mahram, when you talk to a stranger man. And yes, you can talk! Your voice is not a part of al-awrah and it's not something falling under the term of hijab, that you can't even speak to Muslim men who aren't your close relatives... Mind, oh my sister, that even the Mothers of the Believers (!) used to answer questions of Sahaba and they also reported lots of Ahadith after the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam has departed from this world...! Specially 'Aishah, radiallahu 'anha. Those Sahaba were not even their mahrams! And finally, it's not like that, what you say in the beginning - the man only proposes to a woman - even through someone else, and gets answer - also by someone else - they never meet each other personally - they first meet face-to-face at the wedding ceremony - that's it. And after the marriage they might have major problems and misunderstanding and may end up in divorce, just because they didn't know each other personally... You really can't find out anything about a person you're gonna marry through another person, even pious one, simply because it's not the man himself talking to you... Everyone is weak and another person may over-rate the brother's advantages, and later you find out the man isn't that what you expected him to be like, but it's already too late coz you're already married and you are not going to divorce him, divorce is the last thing you can do, if the marriage is not successful, remember...

But, c'mon! If you are NOT a Wahhabi, then do not act like one... Islam is religion for human beings... You don't have to do a sin, I'm not saying that, but yes, you can, even you should talk to him - AT LEAST ON THE PHONE! - and you shall not think it's a sin to meet him, specially in a group of other people, because it's even permissible with any Muslim. It's not khulwa (being totally alone with a non-mahram man is indeed haraam, but in a closed room or a house, not even when you're outside and everyone can see your actions and hear your speech - if you two have a witness, it is perfectly ok and recommendable for you, if you wanna get married to each other...

Salaam.

Aisha UK

Lazeena Umm Yusuf said...

Aisha UK, you SHOULD have read the entire post becasue everything you tried to 'disprove' me in are matters I addressed so really your comment makes absolutely no sense. I never said people interested in marriage with someone should not meet face to face or on the phone or send a proposal through someone else. I'd appreciate it if you didnt put words in my mouth and read the entire post if you choose to comment on it - that goes for everyone... Thanks..

Abdul-Malik Abu Yusuf said...

As salaamu alaikum,

Aisha UK, some of the points you mentioned were incorrect. LIkeweise, Laura, "As far as I'm concerned" and "in my humble opintion" has no place in Islam when you are talking about matter of religion, you should side with the truth based upon evidence. We can sit here all day and debate amongst ourselves but at the end of the day it would not do much good because I do not think any of us reading this blog are true students of Islamic knowledge. If anyone wants to know about how to deal with your fiance then you should ask a reliable 'alim/sheikh/mufti/imam/student of knowledge etc. That goes with any matter concerning Islam. I am not saying we as everyday people should not discuss there matters or even debate them but we can only go so far.

Umm Ismail said...

Subhanana Allah, We cannot Freemix among the Men There has to be a Chaperon. Between the two intendeds dueto fact of the Hadith Shaytan is the Third person if your alone with them.
The Prophet sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam also mentions that being alone with a strange lady(or Man) is not permissible and he pointed out sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam "that no man ever finds himself in seclusion with a lady except that Shaytaan is the third." [1]

We have to protect ourselves From Fitnah. and the Whispers of the Shaytan at every turn..

"The nikaah puts the seal on your relationship and after that you can talk as much as you want without fear or worry of sinning. And then soon enough you'll start getting tired of hearing this person speak"

Marriage is the Seal Other that is Just dating. with out no Chaperon

this is a good Article on the Fallacy of Dating
http://www.troid.org/news/brief-benefits/the-wisdom-of-marriage-the-fallacy-of-dating.html

This is a Wonderful Post and is Effecting the sisters. With online Dating Talking freely to whom they choose not willing to Have a Wali to do the work. ect.. in Egypt They have Engagements parties and they are engaged for forever and a day and Still Freemix with each other with or with out family. it is a culture thing and not Islam. When we Leave are Opinions alone andhols close to the Rope of Allah we will be better off. insha allah.

And plan the intended is a Non Maharaam and No matter if u will matter them until u do handle the business of "getting to know" by the Sunnah.Allahu allim

Umm Ismail said...

"Well, in the Hadith the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam said to a man of Sahaba who was going to marry a woman: Look at her, because that will help strenghten the relationship between you two... Look at her, because there is something in Ansar's eyes...!"

In this case of the Sahaba in this Ask the Question were they the only two there. when he looked upon her? and don't you think it contradicts Hadith on being alone with strange men and women.Strange being is not your Maharam. SO it best to look at the history of the hadith and the Details of it.

Ummismail

Umm Ismail said...

Lol sorry I forget to post something and I come back, But the Whole of the Women is Awrah including her Voice.
It is important to understand that the voice of the Women affects the hearts of men since it is soft by nature.
Masha allah this is article on the Subject of one one thing can Lead to another, Softness of a women Voice, similar to the effects of Music it hits the heart which can lead to Evil.

Haleemah said...

wow Aisha UK your comment has nothing to do with sister Lazeena's post. Lazeena if I were you i would delete it, esp. because she is calling you a wahabi and then also making wahabis seem like they make islam hard on people. i hate when people comment on posts they havent even read thrhough funny how they try and make others look stupid and end up making a fool of them own selves! sorry if i sound rude sis. Aisha UK but you seemed to have no problem insulting this sister who spoke nothing but the truth in the light of islam, when i saw this i knew some ppl would make trouble over it even though this is how it should be. follow it or not if you want, then thats up to you.

Uthmaan said...

Aisha UK: Why would you go out in public with someone you are trying to get to know for marriage? Wouldn't you want to do this in the comfort and privacy of your home. Where would you even go, somewhere to eat? No one wants to eat with a messy face in front of their potential spouse lol, surely not myself or anyone else I know. Plus, you should not go out in the open this way because who knows if you'll even hit it off with this person or not. Then people would have seen you together and know that one rejected the other. This is also why a male should not propose to a sister knowing that another brother has as so create competition and possible hatred between the two.
REgarding engagement parties this is unislamic. Like mentioned, engagements are just a promise to inshallah marry and that is all. I agree that post engagement you do not need to continue to meet with the mahram to sit and talk and learn more about one another. All learning should be done prior to the engagement. I am Indian myself and very much despise the big engagement hullabaloo they put on and even the traditional weddings are so unislamic subhanallah. Allah help us please to do which is right to please him inshallah

togolome said...

I'm back lol First there's no such thing as a Wahhabi your saying that to Insult her. Are maybe your upset because Dawah tus Salafiyyah are striveinf to the Follow the Deen and not the Moderate or Liberal or cultural way. That the Prophet Sallaallahi alayhi wa salam didn't Die upon nor did his Companions they lived & died Upon the Haqq. And insults Shows that you have know understanding of the true Islam. Your trying to Say Being Strict is not the way that you can do this at that and it is ok.

You have no Real idea of what your saying. But If Practicing the Deen Correctly Deam's it "Wahhabi" oh boy so be it.

May Allah guide you sis and bring you peace.. Ameen

Baraka allahu Feek sister Laseena

Sorry for the misspellings in the other posts I can't Spell lol lol.

Marissa said...

LOL! I like how you titled it as BREAKING NEWS! BEccause for some people it probably is and unfortunately they won't make much of this fact!!! I hate whenever people hang out and mix with their cousins, this is not a part of Islam!

Aalia said...

Asalaamu `alaikum

Dear Sister Lazeena, jazaki Allah khair for this wonderful reminder!

As for Aisha UK, I have seen her "Wahabi" rhetoric on my girl's Pixie Blog and after I corrected some of her Sufi-istic ideas and explained that Shaykh Muhammad Abdul-Wahab was NOT "the biggest innovator", it's clear that she did not receive any benefit from me post.

May Allah guide us all!

um almujahid said...

as salamu alaykum

For Aisha UK:

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12203/wahabi

Safa said...

Assalaamu alaikum,

Great post! I agree. I had an associate who took shahada, moved to Florida and was proposed to by the local imam there. Why did this brother convince her that not only were they intended BUT b/c she had no muslim relatives in the area, he was also her wahkeel???? So they were hanging out, going to the movies, etc. So scandalous!

Tariq said...

This is a very important issue for Muslims to discuss and be aware of. It is a widespread disease!!! I myself ignored this Islamic law and became very emotionally hurt. I wanted to get t know a sister for marriage and spoke to her a lot on the phone before even asking her parents for her hand. We became so attached and then I learned something about her I did not like and decided I could not have her for a wife - but there were so many emotions and baggage. Esp this is hard for Muslims who have always practiced and never interacted with the other gender, of course they are going to fall head over heals right away if those feelings are reciprocated and it was hard for me to let go. I was depressed for a while and as far as I know so was she. IT was terrible. I try to aware everyone around me not to get into this, it is bad for your book of deeds and your mind and your heart!! I should have gotten to learn of her through her Wali being there. I know I still probably would have had emotions of course this is natural, but definitely not as strong as I did through speaking with her secretly. Even going out together with someone there makes no sense, this isnt getting to know someone but instead this is hanging out with someone and these 2 are different things. Thank you for this post. I see most people here agree and I hope it reaches someone who never looked into this issue before

Pixie said...

Aisha U.K: Yes, you should read sister Aalia's comment on my blog post.

NiDa said...

you have been tagged :D

*~Ange~* said...

i agree... sitting with a mahram present is fine. And you do have to seriously talk to the person to know them more.

And im with you on the issue of girls saying "we are engaged so we can go out and be together in public because we are promised to each other".

its a huge cultural thing as well. in some cultures (i dont know if it is islamic - if anyone can help me) they read surah al-fatiha with the two families and then they let the engaged couple do as they like and go where they please.

like i said, im not sure if that is based on an islamic practice or a cultural one, but it seems as if just the promise of promising yourself is enough to break the mahram rule.

and a lot of girls i know have their pics taken with their fiance and in the pics they are both hugging each other and intimate, then they post these on facebook. and although most of these couples do indeed end up getting married.. what happens to the reputations of the girls who for whatever reason dont follow through with the marriage?

now everyone has seen them physically close to a non-mahram male and in some cultures this could completely tarnish her reputation as a 'good girl'.

Lazeena Umm Yusuf said...

Yeah that definitely is not from the sunnah, I mean it just sounds weird! Saying Fatiha, what the..?? I have a friend who was engaged to a brother for a few months, they would go out together saying technically they were not along because they would go out to eat and to the movies and there were always people around them, and they took public transportation. So what? Like those people would monitor their conversations and check if they were doing anythng? If anything people probably thought they were married. He bought her tons of jewelry and gifts and finally they became like an actual married couple and were constantly fighting. After digging deeper they never even got to learn the things that really mattered about one another... future goals, certain views on Islamic matters. She was enrolling for college and he didnt want her going, he asked her to start niqaab and she didn't want to, and she was upset that after months of being engaged he still wasnt looking for a solid job. I felt bad for laughing because I couldnt believe in their 7+ months of engagement that they had never discussed these issues - even BEFORE the engagement. It's so easy when you overstep the boundaries that Allah has set to get caught up in the whole 'someones interested in me' bit and make all these things that do matter, take the back seat. We're only people, with hearts and emotions and THIS is EXACTLY why a mahram needs to be present when dealing with such issues because no matter how people behave, we are all delicate inside when it comes to being with someone.

al-Ghariba said...

Salams,
SubhanAllah your article hit the nail on the head for me. I see this "fiance" thing all the time. and they wont accept that its not from the SUnnah.

Pixie said...

http://beautifulmuslimah.blogspot.com/2009/01/breaking-news-fiances-are-not-your.html

I hope you don't mind I re-posted your blog piece. Some people really hate it, because they want to disregard a thing that is good for them because it seems difficult. May Allah S.W.T reward you for bringing attention to this issue.

bint alshamsa said...

Ange,

Yes, I have seen engagement pictures like the ones you've mentioned and wondered about this when it seems so out of character for those particular individuals.

Muslim Wife said...

LOVE IT! SubhanAllah, the sad thing is that this really is a news flash to many people. There is no doubt that we are living in the times that the haraam is made halaal and the halaal is made haraam. May Allah protect us and guide us to those actions that please Him, even if at the cost of angering the creation, ameen!
(psst, I know I'm late to the whole convo, but I'm *SO* stealing your title for my FB status, hehe, don't worry, I'll give you credit!:))